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Vegetarians in Paradise

24 Carrot Award

Vegetarians in Paradise presents the 24 Carrot Award to an outstanding person or organization that endeavors to practice or promote education, natural health, wholesome nutrition, and ecology techniques for the mutual benefit of humans, animals, and the earth.

Vegetarians in Paradise takes great pride in presenting its 24 Carrot Award to Dr. Milton Mills.

Dr. Mills has served as an associate director of preventive medicine for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. He is an urgent care physician at Fairfax Hospital in Fairfax, Virginia and at the United Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

Dr. Mills earned his medical degree at Stanford University School of Medicine and completed an internal medicine residency at Georgetown University Hospital.

For years he has advocated against the inclusion of meat and dairy in the diet and has spoken at numerous seminars about their negative effects on health.

Film Documentaries he has appeared in include Vegucated, Vegan 2017, and What the Health.

As a co-author of the research paper "Racial Bias in Federal Nutition Policy, Part 1," he and his colleagues criticized the Dietary Guidelines for Americans of racial bias for recommending two to three daily servings of dairy products. They pointed out that a majority of African Americans, Hispanics, Asians, and Native Americans are lactose intolerant and do not have the enzymes to digest milk properly. Osteoporosis is less common in these groups, and calcium can be obtained from sources other than dairy products.

Dr. Mills' video "Are Humans Designed to Eat Meat?" is available on YouTube. It is among the many videos by him on YouTube.

What follows is our interview with Dr. Milton Mills.

ZEL: Hi. Dr. Mills. Are you familiar with us at all?

DR. MILLS: Not before you reached out to me.

ZEL: We've been publishing our little vegan magazine online since 1999. We try to provide good resources not only for people in Los Angeles but also to people all over the world. Plus, we have some interesting articles and lots and lots of recipes just to give people an opportunity where they can find a home with good veggie stuff.

DR. MILLS: Well, that's wonderful.

Dr. Milton Mills ZEL: So, one of the questions that we wondered about--We know you were vegetarian for a long time before you were vegan.

REUBEN: Well, what led you to veganism?

ZEL: Did you grow up vegan or vegetarian?

DR. MILLS: No, I didn't. I became vegetarian at age 16.

ZEL: Ah, what was the trigger?

DR. MILLS: The trigger was that um--Do you want the full story?

ZEL: Sure!

DR. MILLS: Well, when I was 13 years old my parents informed my brothers and me that they were getting divorced. And that came as a surprise because my parents weren't at each other's throats. It was kind of a decision they reached, but for me it was a situation that felt like my world had exploded.

So, my response to that experience was to sort of ask myself, was there a way to navigate life so that you could avoid these kinds of painful experiences. And the first question I felt I needed to answer was the question: was God real? If God did not exist, I didn't want to spend my life in a senseless round of ceremonies. If God was real, it was equally absurd to try to live my life without acknowledging him. So, I decided, essentially, to take the Bible and start to read it and start to talk to God, because I figured if I said to God, "If this real, and this is your word, you should be able to help me understand what's in it." And to just cut to the chase, I started reading it. I started talking to him, and he started talking back to me, and he led me to became a Seventh Day Adventist.

The Seventh Day Adventist church encourages its members to become plant-based. Now, even though that's the case, I did not immediately become vegetarian, because I really liked meat. I was very addicted to meat. At the time, I felt like I couldn't live without it.

Now, I did give up pork, shellfish, and all the meats that were considered unclean meat, but I felt I could not live without hamburgers and things like that. But about a year after joining the church, I was dealing with some issues, and I started talking to God--and he said to me very directly, "If you want a closer relationship with me, you need a clearer mind, and for that you need a clearer diet. You have to stop eating meat." I said, "Well if you want me to stop eating meat, you have to take away the desire to eat it." And he did and that was September 1974.

ZEL: Wow! That was a powerful beginning!

REUBEN: So, when did you transition to veganism?

DR. MILLS: That happened around 2000, 2001, and that grew out of my experiences. I was co-working on paper on racial bias in the dietary guidelines where we were focused on looking at the impact of dairy foods on not just dairy foods but animal foods in general on people. The first part of my paper was on lactose intolerance and the impact it had on people of color.

Vegetarian Summerfest That paper grew out of the experience it was having on patients in the clinics I was working in. And when the paper was published, we were invited to give a presentation on it at the Vegetarian Summerfest which is put on by the North American Vegetarian Society (NAVS) every summer at the University of Pittsburgh in Johnstown. Even though it's called Vegetarian Summerfest and even though NAVS calls itself North American Vegetarian Society, it's a completely vegan event. And you know, as I started attending Vegetarian Summerfest, I noticed it was completely immersed in vegan culture.

Vegetarian Summerfest is an amazing experience, because it's a 4 1/2-day event and has essentially all of the major blending of animal lovers, doctors, health experts, and environmental experts. In a vegan movement they cover all the major topics: health, environment, animal rights, women's rights, cooking classes, just everything you can imagine. They bring in a vegan chef who runs the cafeteria, and they have all the permutations of vegan foods you can imagine: raw, gluten free, cooked, oil free, whatever your heart's desire.

I really began to appreciate not only the problems associated with dairy and eggs beyond the issue of just the lactose intolerance, but also the cruelty issues associated with the dairy and egg industry. So that's what helped me really start to truly move away from and eliminate those things from my diet completely, and I should say that even before that, they were minimally included in my diet, but that was sort of the impetus to really eliminate them.

ZEL: So, it helped to be immersed in the vegan culture and basically surrounded by a lot of support, right?

DR. MILLS: Well, yes, and also the scientific information and also learning about the industries themselves. What came across is that I was incredibly naïve. Up until that point, I really thought that dairy cows were allowed to nurse their calves, and that only part of their milk was taken to be used for milk to be sold, and so forth. I had no idea that babies were essentially taken away at birth and turned into veal calves and treated the way they were. The cows themselves were essentially turned into machines for maybe 3 or 4 years until they were literally exhausted and then sent to slaughter houses. It's an incredibly cruel and brutal industry. I just had no idea it was as horrific as it was, including the egg industry. I had no idea it was what it was, because for the average person, those aspects of the animal agribusiness are actually hidden from the public.

REUBEN: I wondered how your friends and relatives reacted to your emphasis on a plant-based diet.

DR. MILLS: Well, again, a big part of my friends are my church family, so many of them are plant-based themselves. They understand that Number 1 from a biblical perspective, it's absolutely the right diet. This is a diet God designed as safe.

Just like when you go out to buy a car, it comes with an owner's manual, and the owner's manual tells you what fuel to put in it, what oil to put in it, how often to change the tires and how to take care of it. Well, it's the same thing with God's word. He told us what fuel to put in our bodies to provide the best health. So, you know when people say they believe God and worship him, it's almost axiomatic. It's a very straightforward issue and very simple. Even if they choose not to do it, it's still understood this is the best way to live.

So that's kind of easy in a sense, but even some of my non-vegan friends and family members understand, to an extent, this is definitely a healthier way to live. When I talk to people about it, and I don't tend to browbeat people over the head, but I do tell them this is what the data shows. These are what the studies show. And there's no question that, from a disease standpoint, this lowers your disease risk. It improves your life expectancy, lowers your risk for heart disease, cancer, diabetes, stroke, hypertension-- all the major health problems we have in major western countries. It's very clear, and I make it difficult to argue with.

For me, it's like people who choose to use drugs. You might decide that, "You know what; I'm going to smoke methamphetamines because I like it," but you can't claim it's a health behavior. So, OK, cool, but you can't say you're doing it because it's healthy. It's the same thing with eating meat. OK, I get it. You're addicted. You're going to do it, and you feel it's something you feel you want to do, but at least acknowledge it's not a healthy diet.

ZEL: Are your relatives vegan?

DR. MILLS: No, but I will say, for instance, that my mother has modified the way she cooks. She eats a lot less meat. My Mom's from Texas. She grew up in the South and she grew up putting pork and stuff in a lot of foods. Now she doesn't do that anymore. She eats a lot less meat. My brother has switched from dairy milk to almond milk--not just on his breakfast cereal, but period. They have definitely made some great strides in the way they eat. And I'm encouraging them to try to continue to change and try to modify their diet and just sort of give them space to move at their own pace.

ZEL: We know you're associated with Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a fabulous group. What role do you play there?

Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine DR. MILLS: I've never been employed by PCRM. I've always worked with them on a volunteer basis. I will say I've always enjoyed working with Neal. Neal has always been-- I'm sorry. I should always say in a formal interview, Dr. Barnard. Dr. Barnard has always been very supportive and we've worked together on a number of very important projects. For instance, I mentioned previously articles on racial bias and dietary guidelines.

Let me give you a little background on that paper. After I finished my residency, I was working in some outpatient clinics and I had this recurrent experience where my patients would come in and tell me, "Doc I'm having a problem with my irritable bowel syndrome or my spastic colon is acting up" I would talk to them about their symptoms, and my impression was, in fact, that what they were experiencing were symptoms of lactose intolerance.

I would ask them to do a two-week trial of no dairy, come back, and we'll see if their symptoms had cleared up. In eight, nine, out of ten cases, the problem had cleared up completely. And most patients were very happy to realize that, "Oh, this is a problem I could avoid." And they were glad to know what the source of the problem was.

This was great, but the kicker came when I had this one African American woman who came back, and sure enough, she stayed off the dairy for two weeks; the problem went away.

  • I said with a great sense of satisfaction, "The problem is you were lactose intolerant."
  • She looked me right in the eye and said, "Oh I know that."
  • I said, "Then why in heaven's name are you continuing to eat these foods you know will make you ill?"
  • She said, "Because I have to. The government says I have to. The dietary guidelines say I have to eat X-number of dairy a day."

USDA Dietary Guidelines That made me really angry, because I realized this woman was being intentionally misled by the U.S. government to eat foods that it knew were going to make her ill for no health benefit. Dairy foods have never been shown to improve bone health. They have never been shown to help prevent bone fractures. The government also knows that African American women are genetically protected against osteoporosis, unless they have some other calcium-wasting condition that weakened their bones. So, it was really infuriating to realize that they were encouraging people of color to eat dairy foods simply to help the dairy industry to move product.

So, I went to PCRM and talked with Neal and said that we need to do a paper on this. Neal was equally appalled, and he agreed, and on that we did the paper Racial Bias in the U.S. Dietary Guidelines. Part 1 of that paper focused on the issue of lactose intolerance in minority groups, because it's so prevalent vis-à-vis Caucasians. (J. Nat'l Med Assoc. 1999 Mar 91(3): 151 - 157 Racial bias in federal nutrition policy, Part 1: The public health implications of variations in lactase persistence. P. Bertron, N.D. Barnard, M. Mills)

Part 2 looked at the larger issue, the fact that western style diets promote excess disease and premature death in racial and minority groups compared to Caucasians because of the presence of what are called thrifty genes. That means that their traditional diets tend to be more plant-based, lower-fat diets that include very little animal foods, no dairy. When Blacks, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, stick to their traditional diets, they have lower rates of disease, lower rates of cancer, diabetes, and so forth. (J. Nat'l Med Assoc. 1999 Apr;91(4): 201 - 8 Racial bias in federal nutrition policy, Part II: Weak guidelines take a disproportionate toll. P. Bertron, N.D. Barnard, M. Mills)

But when they start to eat Western style diets that are typically encouraged by the dietary guidelines, they then end up with very high rates of all of the typical western style diseases, and they often have higher rates of these diseases than the general population. Often because these communities are economically disadvantaged, they don't have access to the care to actually treat these health problems that are essentially being foisted on them by the government recommendations.

I think that was one of the most important papers that have come out in the later part of the last century pointing out these issues. And since those papers have been published, the Dietary Guidelines have actually changed substantially in terms of what they recommend. So, they have become much more focused on plant foods. They still have a way to go, but they have changed substantially. I think PCRM can take a lot of credit for that, and I applaud Neal for really championing this issue and being willing to work with me and to support me in championing this issue. The other person who was the co-author on this paper and did a huge amount of work on it was a dietitian by the name of Patricia Bertron. She's a brilliant and talented woman and writer who deserves a lot of the credit and deserves a lot of accolades for publishing a very, very important paper that does a lot to change the landscape of what is recommended in terms of the appropriate diet.

ZEL: And that paper came out when?

DR. MILLS: I think it was published in 1998 or 1999. It should be right up on the top of my head. I have it right in my files.

REUBEN: We'll find it. What successes have you had in promoting a plant-based diet with your patients and do you have any recommendation for other physicians.

I'm Vegan--Stop Diabetes DR. MILLS: Sure. I've actually had some really dramatic successes. One that, what springs immediately to mind is that I had a patient--for privacy sake I'll only use her first name, Kathy. I started taking care of Kathy probably around 1997 or '98 when I was working in a free clinic in Alexandria, Virginia. This is, of course, before the Affordable Care Act, when people still didn't have health insurance. So, if you didn't have health insurance, you were reliant upon free clinics run by whatever county you lived in.

Kathy had very, very bad diabetes, and by the time I started taking care of her, she had been diagnosed with diabetes for several years and was on large doses of insulin twice a day, plus an oral medicine called glucotrol. Her blood sugars were still very poorly controlled, despite the large doses of medication. Her blood sugars averaged in the 200 to 300 range. She had severe heart disease, high blood pressure, and she had blockages in her legs because of proximal claudication, where she had cramping so bad she couldn't walk more than a block without severe pain. The combination of these symptoms got so bad it caused her to become disabled, so that she couldn't work. She told me that when she got up in the morning her vision was so blurred and she felt she was in this fog to the point where she would have to sit on the side of her bed for 15 minutes before she could really get up and start the day. She was really desperate.

I sat down and talked to her about how diet plays a tremendous role, and has a tremendous impact on diabetes. And I'll be honest, I was hoping she would agree to become vegetarian. Kathy surprised me, and went completely vegan, which is absolutely wonderful. Over the next eight to twelve weeks, I had to take her off all of her diabetes medications, and, literally, by the end of 12 weeks she was completely off all her diabetes medications and remained off them. I had to take her off two of her blood pressure medications, and over the next year she lost over 61 pounds without trying. The problem with the claudication in her legs cleared up to the point where she was walking over a mile a day and she actually was able to go back to work. (Dr. Mills pauses quietly to express tearful emotion.)

United Medical Center ZEL: It must have been very rewarding.

DR. MILLS: It's just very difficult to talk about this without becoming emotional because Kathy was a member the same church and she was also a friend of mine. It's a little embarrassing. I'm sorry.

ZEL: It's totally OK. We understand.

DR. MILLS: It was just wonderful to see her get her life back.

ZEL: Have you had many similar experiences with other patients?

We had another patient in clinic. He was a Hispanic gentleman who was a truck driver, but he only spoke Spanish. And he would be very faithful with coming to clinic and had a little book that he kept his blood sugars written down. Whenever he came to clinic, we would look at his blood sugars, and they were very healthy. And the problem was that he was Spanish speaking. The nurses said he must not be compliant with his medications. And I said this doesn't make sense. This man doesn't miss his appointments and dutifully marks down all his blood sugars when we ask him to and is showing us he is as compliant as he can be. The problem is that every time he comes, we don't have anyone who can communicate with him adequately. So, I said, "Next time he comes to clinic I want to have a Spanish translator."

We did, and It turned out he was a truck driver, and he's eating at these greasy spoon joints. So, once again, I sat down with him and talked about the importance of eliminating oil, fried foods and switching to a more plant-based diet. And while I don't think he became completely vegetarian or vegan, he absolutely did change his diet. He became more plant-based and eliminated high fat foods, and the change in his blood sugar control was incredibly dramatic. Suddenly his diabetes was under control. It was absolutely amazing to see. So, it's just something I've seen again and again.

American Vegan Society There's another case where I was invited up to the American Vegan Society to speak at their Meat-out a few years ago. I was approached by a woman who attended my lecture, and she talked to me about her husband. She said he had diabetes and his diabetes was not well controlled. He had been to several different doctors. They changed his medicines around, but he was still having problems controlling it and he was starting to have complications. She said that her husband was kind a big guy and he was very regular and was one of these guys that was used to being in charge and being in control of his life. Now that he was starting to have these issues with problems he couldn't control, he was starting to become discouraged and to feel like he didn't know what to do. She was, I wouldn't say despondent. She wasn't at that point, but she was just desperate. I sat down and talked with them. One of the things I know about guys is that when you ask guys to change their life; that's a big thing. That's a huge thing; it's a big mountain to climb.

So, there's a principle I learned in chemistry. If you can lower the activation energy, it makes it more likely that a reaction will go forward. So, I don't ask men to change their diet. I ask them to do an experiment. I ask them to try this for eight weeks, and if at the end of the eight weeks, you don't feel any different, things aren't any better, you go back to doing what you were doing before. But, I tell them, "I can guarantee you will feel so much better and will look so much better, you're not going to want to go back to what you were doing before."

I would say probably six weeks in, I got an email from his wife and it was just one of those emotional things where she just talked about the change in him and how he felt so much better. His health was so much better--how he was back to the man he was before, and he was so much happier and he was so committed to being vegan.

ZEL: Wow!

DR. MILLS: Yeah, I've seen some amazing miracles and this is one.

ZEL: What a reward!

DR. MILLS: It's a wonderful thing to see.

ZEL: It is!

REUBEN: I wonder if maybe we're getting too personal, but what kind of diet do you personally follow and what kind of exercise program do you do. What do you eat in an average week or day. If people wanted to follow your personal example, can they?

DR. MILLS: They probably shouldn't! (Dr. Mills chuckles and we joined him with a chuckle.) Let me tell you why I say that. I tell you that I work so much that I eat on the fly a lot. For instance, yesterday I had some kind of rice cakes with hummus for breakfast, a salad with tempeh, and some vegan fish filets with some vegan tartar sauce I made out of Vegenaise, horseradish, and Dijon mustard.

ZEL: Hm. Sounds good.

DR. MILLS: Actually, the tartar sauce is pretty awesome. (Dr. Mills laughs.)

REUBEN: Even if you have to admit it, huh!

Green Salad DR. MILLS: Yes, (he chuckles) and the salad was a good salad made with spring greens which had a mixture of really good greens and tomatoes. The tempeh was actually a mock chicken salad that had some--I have to give credit--a friend of mine made it. I have to get the recipe from her. It had pumpkin seeds, carrots, and some other things. It was actually good, but it was one of those times I was kind of on the fly. The problem is that I don't have time to cook the way I would like to.

I've actually been looking for a vegan chef that I would love to hire to come in and prepare some standardized meals, because, ideally, I would like to make sure I'm getting my green leafies in, a minimum of three or four times a week. I want to include some legumes in my diet in some form, again, at least three times a week, and whole grains I get in in the morning, usually in the form of cereal with citrus and berries, and round out my diet with rice. I love rice a lot, and, again, usually as brown rice. I often have wild rice dishes. I try to mix things up like that. I do use some of the vegan prepared items, but I try to be judicious with that. I like to use the ones that are made from more natural products. For instance, sausages that are typically made from more whole foods and somewhat less processed than some of the other products. I tend to use those to some extent.

There are recipes where you can make your own mock crab cakes. You can grind up artichoke hearts and hearts of palm, and then you can make loads of stuff from seitan. You can make black bean burgers. That's one of the reasons I need a chef. I definitely want to eat food that is prepared from more whole ingredients, but I don't have the time to do that just because of my work schedule. So, I end up using more convenience foods more often than I would like to.

ZEL: Doggone! I wish you lived next door. I'd fix you up. (We all chuckle.) So, do you avoid oil, salt, and sugar?

DR. MILLS: Let me say this. I know there's this following of no-oil people. I do feel that for people that have generally-defined illnesses like diagnosed heart disease, diabetes, cancer or maybe even autoimmune disease, for those individuals, it's critical to be so completely adherent to no oil as much as possible. But for people who are otherwise relatively healthy, at that point, you want to limit your oil exposure. So, I don't think you have to be no oil, but you definitely want to limit the amount of oil, so that's what I try to do. I work really hard to limit the amount of oil in my diet.

ZEL: How about salt and sugar?

DR. MILLS: Absolutely. Salt and sugar as well, especially added sugars and refined sugars. I think an occasional piece of cake for a celebration is OK, but it's not something that should be done every single day, and certainly not multiple times a day.

ZEL: And no salt in the diet for everybody?

DR. MILLS: Again, I think judicious, definitely limited and to the extent we can live without pouring it on everything. The less you use the better.

REUBEN: What personal goals do you have for yourself for the future?

Garden of Eden DR. MILLS: Several. The most proximal personal goal is working to get a website called "Eden Was Vegan" up and running. That website is designed to make available to people information about what the Bible has to say about plant-based eating. I often have people ask me about medical support for both plant-based eating and animal rights that they could share with their family members and pastors and other church members. I think it's important that people have access to that information, because the Bible is very supportive of those things. The fact is that Eden was vegan and I don't know if the humans were told to be vegan, but all the animals were vegan. So, I've purchased the domain name and hired a web designer who has actually designed the whole page, so we're getting the content together. Hopefully. within the next two weeks we'll actually have it up and running. Then people will be able to go there and download information that they'll be able to share with their loved ones, church members, and pastors. Then, they can find links to other Christian or Jewish organizations that support the vegan lifestyle as well as links to health information and recipes and so forth.

ZEL: What's the domain name?

DR. MILLS: Again, it will be "Eden Was Vegan."

ZEL: OK. Thank you.

DR. MILLS: That's as in the Garden of Eden.

REUBEN: Are there any other projects you're working on?

DR. MILLS: I've been contacted by a publishing company who would like to work with me on publishing a book on diabetes. I'm going to be meeting with them next month and talk about moving that project forward. And beyond that, the big project and the one I'm devoting my life to will be working on a book that will be built around the topic "Are humans designed to eat meat?" because that is probably what I consider to be the holy grail of my life. It's what I really want people to understand--that human beings are herbivores. We're not carnivores. We're not omnivores. What we really are, are strict herbivores, and that's why we will be adhered to a plant-based diet. It is absolutely healthier for us and better for the earth.

REUBEN: We heard your lecture at VegSource and we were talking about that.

ZEL: We got a strong impression.

REUBEN: I think it's on YouTube.

DR. MILLS: It is, and what's on YouTube is really the British version of the lecture out of necessity. That's one of the reasons I need to put this in book form, so that I can give people the complete treatment of the topic so that they will understand that when you fully see all of the supporting information, it's very clear that humans truly are plant eaters. That's why I said it will make sense to people that when we become plant eaters we will have less disease. We live longer. We function better. We are less likely to suffer from dementia and so on. Equally as important, I think, is that once we understand that fact it gives a lot more moral weight to the animal rights and environmental arguments because it becomes clear that we truly are herbivores. Then it becomes that much more indefensible to be committing the heinous acts of cruelty that are involved in animal agriculture agribusiness and also the egregious things we are doing to our planet in order raise these animals for human consumption.

ZEL: So, it sounds like you're working a lot of hours. You work a lot and your projects are also related to work. What do you do for pure pleasure and enjoyment?

DR. MILLS: (Dr. Mills chuckles.)

ZEL: Is there time for that?

REUBEN: Yes, is there time for pleasure?

DR. MILLS: (Dr. Mills and we share chuckles.) Not a lot, but to the extent that I can I try to squeeze in a little travel here and there, and occasionally I'll read something that's non-health related and--

REUBEN: No mysteries?

DR. MILLS: You mean mystery books?


DR. MILLS: I don't think I've read a mystery recently.

ZEL: So, what sort of books do you read that give you that escape?

DR. MILLS: Interestingly, the most recent book I've read is called the Secret Life of Trees (He chuckles).

ZEL and REUBEN: (All of us laugh.) Oh, that sounds sexy!

DR. MILLS: And it's all about trees and how they form these complex webs in the forest, mutually support each other, and how they interact with the fungi in the soil. It's actually kind of a fascinating book, and it's clinical. Waiting in the wings I have a book on the tides and how they work, plus, I got a couple of others I'll be starting, too.

ZEL: OK! So, you like biology then, right?

DR. MILLS: Yeah. I do. I love the natural world.

REUBEN: Well is there anything else that's near and dear to your heart that you would like to tell us about?

DR. MILLS: Well, you guys were very thorough in the questions that you sent me. I think the interview has covered everything pretty well.

REUBEN: OK, well, we want to thank you very much for taking the time to do this. I know you're a very busy person.

ZEL: Very busy! (Dr. Mills chuckles)

REUBEN: I truly appreciate it and what we would like to do is put this up at the beginning of May. If you would like see a draft of it before we put it up that would be fine.

ZEL: If you would like to add anything-- We want to introduce our readers to your different avenues and, of course, we want to give them your website, other than the Eden one that you're working on, or direct them to particular things on YouTube. Anything you want to add would be great.

DR. MILLS: Well, thank you. I absolutely trust your judgement. I will let you know when the website is up and running.

ZEL: We'll definitely post the link.

DR. MILLS: I'll send you the link to the URL so that you guys can make that available.

Dr. Milton Mills REUBEN: If you will, send us a portrait of yourself that you like, in a jpg format.


REUBEN: And any other pictures you would like us to include with the interview.

DR. MILLS: OK, all right.

ZEL: I'm curious. Where did you travel that you loved so much?

DR. MILLS: Oh, wow! Italy! There is so much history in Italy. I had a wonderful time in Italy, and London was also amazing. I also love our national parks. Yosemite was fantastic and the one place that I have always dreamed of going that I have yet to get to is Yellowstone. So that's on my to-do list.

ZEL: Have you been to Bryce?

DR. MILLS: No! I've seen pictures and I want to go because I know it's really cool.

ZEL: It's awesome! It IS very cool.

REUBEN: Thank you again.

ZEL: Thank you so much. It was delightful. Have a great day. It's beautiful here. Wish you were next door--I'd cook for you!

DR. MILLS: Yeah, me, too!

REUBEN: And if you're ever in the San Fernando Valley, well, stop in and we'll cook up a great meal for you!

ZEL: Oh, yes. Let us know if you're coming to Los Angeles ever.

DR. MILLS: Will do, absolutely.

ZEL & REUBEN: Thank you again.

DR. MILLS: Thank you again. You guys have a wonderful day!

ZEL: Thank you, you too!

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